wakko: I've been meaning to do this...

Brett (

wakko) wrote,
@ 2008-03-28 09:56:00

Current location:	@werk
Current mood:	thoughtful
Current music:	All of My Love - Led Zeppelin

I've been meaning to do this...
I had this idea when the incident happened, but I haven't gotten around to it until now.

I'd like to play a little game with all of you. The rules are simple, answer one question. This is simply a Gedankenexperiment. You don't have to tell me the answer, though you can if you like.

Which of these two women would you rather be?

Woman #1
Woman #2

Neither of these women are unique. They are both fairly ordinary. There are literally dozens of news stories about people just like them in the same situation every single day.

Read the articles, and think about it. Which of those people would you want to be?

(Post a new comment)

	butterflake 2008-03-28 05:42 pm UTC (link)
	I can't see any reason to choose Woman #2. She's dead. Gone. Nothing beyond that really matters. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	wakko 2008-03-28 06:11 pm UTC (link)
	Yep. That _is_ the point. She'd been taught to call 911 when she needed help. However, help wasn't there when she needed it most. It's tragic and sad. She's dead because she believed the lie. My hope is that more people spend some time thinking about how they can keep themselves safe. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

templar46_2
2008-03-28 07:07 pm UTC (link)

"She's dead because she believed the lie."

no, she's dead because someone decided to kill her. It's not a "lie", it's just a fairly inefficient system that takes way too long to be of much use outside of helping to make sure that whatever happened to you... doesn't happen *again*.

That's... really the whole point of the system. Outside of Phillip K. Dick stories, you can't expect the cops to get there at the same time or even before a crime takes place... they're always going to get there well after their arrival would do YOU any good. Law enforcement is a reactive system. "ye canne change tha laws o'physics captn!"

They're there... to help the next guy, not you.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

wakko
2008-03-28 07:18 pm UTC (link)

You missed the boat on this one.

The lie is that 911 and the police exist to keep people safe.

It's told to every school-age kid, and every immigrant. Everyone is indoctrinated into this belief that the magical powers of the government can keep you alive and safe when bad things happen.

This is not true and is, in fact, not even possible. As you said, it's a reactive system. As soon as they know something is happening, they come to do the paperwork and clean up the mess. Sometimes, they manage to get there early enough to actually intervene in the situation, but that's not something you should risk your life on.

Now, that's not to say the police are irrelevant and we don't need them. That's also not true. They're very effective at the job they've been tasked with. That job just doesn't really have much to do with your safety.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

templar46_2
2008-03-28 07:51 pm UTC (link)

oh i don't think i "missed the boat". From my point of view, you've mostly just rephrased what i said.

the only real difference here, is you're using the word "lie" and place blame on government and authority for not making it explicitly clear what it is and is not... and i'm saying people are foolish for expecting it to be something it can't be. We do however, seem to agree that people generally think the police and the government are something more than they are... regardless as to the source of that misconception.

the police ARE there to keep people safe. Granted, in order to do that, a percentage of OTHER people have to come to harm first... but it's the difference between these crimes going completely unchecked vs. a relatively small percentage of the population being victimized. So it's easy to see "woman 2 was shot to death" as a failure of law enforcement to protect woman 2 and keep her safe from harm. BUT... i actually don't see it as a failure, just an unfortunate turn of events, that nobody (her, or the police) could have prevented. Realistically, only the guy with the gun had the ultimate control over whether or not she died. And that situation doesn't change, no matter what you believe about 911. Sometimes very bad things still happen to people who are totally and thoroughly prepared. (For all we know, woman 2 could have also had a gun in the house, but didn't/couldn't get to it.)

Part of this system though, requires that the victim becomes a cog in the machine in helping prevent the same fate happening to others. File the paperwork, tell your story to anyone who'll listen, and help both other people and law enforcement be better prepared to increase the odds for the next guy.

because like you said earlier... it's all about increasing the odds. By making that 911 call, woman 2 helped increase the chances that her attacker MIGHT be found and captured, and kept from killing more women later.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

wakko
2008-03-28 08:30 pm UTC (link)

You're right. We agree in some places, and disagree in others.

It's a lie because the claims being made do not match with reality in any way.

To be clear, part of the blame for perpetuating this lie is also borne by the general populace. There are a large number of people outside of the government who help keep this belief in the system afloat. I don't believe any one entity is specifically at fault for this.

"the police ARE there to keep people safe."

False. It gets a bit pedantic, but there's an important distinction here that the vast majority of people trip up on.

The purpose of the police is to enforce the law and promote public safety. The courts have consistently said that the duty of the police is to "the public", which all people are a part of, but specifically identifies no single person. There is no specific "you" that enters into any part of their job description.

"but it's the difference between these crimes going completely unchecked vs. a relatively small percentage of the population being victimized."

I disagree with your categorization of "relatively small". While year-to-year, the number of crimes is a percentage of the populace, but over the course of multiple years it's not the same people being repeatedly victimized. Instead, some percentage of these crimes affect new people such that, over the span of one person's life, it is very nearly a certainty that you will be the target of at least one criminal's actions.

"So it's easy to see "woman 2 was shot to death" as a failure of law enforcement to protect woman 2 and keep her safe from harm."

Except that isn't what I see at all.

I see that woman 2 chose to rely on someone else that wasn't present to help her. She chose to make her life someone else's responsibility. Instead of choosing to take control of assuring her own safety, she chose to wait for someone else to save her.

As tragic as that situation is, I am also disappointed that someone in that situation would not do everything in their power to save themself and would instead choose to just sit by the phone and wait for death.

"Part of this system though, requires that the victim becomes a cog in the machine in helping prevent the same fate happening to others. "

Agreed with one caveat. This part happens after the victim saves themself.

All of the systems break down when the individual abdicates their responsibilities to the system.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	bertaberta 2008-03-28 06:19 pm UTC (link)
	Um, fuck. Woman one. How is that even a question? (Reply to this)(Thread)

	wakko 2008-03-28 06:38 pm UTC (link)
	Obviously the question is a bit loaded. ;-) The real question is a bit more complex. My hope is to get people thinking a little more about taking control of their own safety. (Reply to this)(Parent)

kindof a loaded question there chief...

templar46_2
2008-03-28 06:47 pm UTC (link)

so... what are you asking here?

are you asking if i'd rather be pro-gun and alive or anti-gun and dead? 'cause... that's not really the situation in these two articles. Woman 1 could have EASILY also been killed when someone with a gun broke into her home. Woman 2 could easily have NOT been killed despite not having a gun.

or is the question "would you rather deal with the situation yourself? or wait for someone to help you?"

because again... that's not really a fair question. woman 1 could have called 911 when she left the room, instead of getting a handgun... and given a different set of circumstances, police could have intervened (okay, less plausible since her husband was struggling with the intruder, but still in the realm of possibility). I've also heard of plenty of stories where an intruder, upon realizing that someone was contacting the police, fled rather than make the situation worse by killing the person on the phone with 911.

you can't really predict how an intruder is going to behave. They might kill you no matter what you do or don't do. Using a gun, only really serves to insure that SOMEONE is going to get hurt. You, or them. someone's going to be shot. Not having a gun, sure gives the intruder better odds than you... but it could also mean that nobody gets killed at all.

Another huge point, is being prepared to USE the damn thing in the first place. Having a gun doesn't help you at all if you're not prepared to shoot someone with it. And sometimes even if you don't have one... being more prepared than the intruder goes a long damn way itself (in the neighborhood where i grew up, a guy had his house broken into in the middle of the night, and was shot three times in the FACE! before he was able to take the gun away from the burglar, and beat said intruder *to death* with the butt of the handgun)

i'm not really saying i'm for or against gun ownership. But i'm far less likely to accidentally shoot myself with a baseball bat... *shrug*

if your question is just "would you rather be alive than dead?" in a situation where you can not choose the outcome or circumstances... then i'm going to say i'd rather be woman 3, the one who didn't have her home broken into because she owned a dog that made a lot of damn noise when someone unfamiliar was lurking near the door/windows... since clearly she had roughly the same options that the other two did... and having a gun doesn't necessarily affect the chances that someone breaks into your home in the first place.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: kindof a loaded question there chief...

templar46_2
2008-03-28 06:54 pm UTC (link)

sidenote: "Having a gun doesn't help you at all if you're not prepared to shoot someone with it. "

which... i'm not, actually. I've learned to shoot, i know how, i'm capable of operating and effectively using a firearm of a variety of shapes and sizes. I do not think however, that i could fire a gun AT a person, knowing i could potentially kill them. I would hesitate while my ethics wage war internally, and give the intruder plenty of time to disarm me, and probably kill ME for pointing a gun at him to begin with.

and i'm okay with that. but i'll never own a gun because of it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: kindof a loaded question there chief...

wakko
2008-03-28 07:09 pm UTC (link)

That's a totally fair and reasonable assessment to make.

I don't really care if everyone owns a firearm or not.

In general, the more people that are owners, the safer everyone around them are. However, like in most things, there IS a point of diminishing returns where turning that same knob up to 11 doesn't *really* get you that much more.

What I _do_ care about is people's education and safety. The more you know, the more tools you have, and the better your choices are going to be.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: kindof a loaded question there chief...

wakko
2008-03-28 07:02 pm UTC (link)

I think you've gotten the idea.

My main point is that I want people to seriously think about the reality of the situation. 911 is a very unreliable service. This isn't the only case of "the system" failing, nor is it a rare or extreme example. This kind of thing is really disturbingly common. The information is all public record, and can be researched by anyone. The problem is, nobody wants to talk about it because its tragic, heartbreaking and often is a gruesome subject.

This also doesn't even touch the fact that the police are the cause of some pretty heinous crimes on their own.

In these kinds of situations, there is no substitute for being prepared. You don't always have total control of your environment. However, you can always improve your odds for success.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: kindof a loaded question there chief...

templar46_2
2008-03-28 07:13 pm UTC (link)

well yeah... people are people. Just because someone has a badge, or religion, or authority in some other form... doesn't actually mean they're any different inside their heads, than any other schmuck you meet on the street/interwebs.

also, this is just kindof a life thing. LIFE! is all about trying to improve your odds for success. We wear seatbelts to improve our chances of surviving a car crash... we run anti-viral software on our computers to improve our chances of not being "h4ckz0rd"...

people are always going to be untrustworthy hairless apes looking to get ahead of the rest of the pack... and most of them don't mind stepping over YOU to get there. Knowing that they're like that goes a pretty long way though.

hi, i'm Templar... and people say i'm "paranoid" because i distrust people i don't know personally... although i usually assume those people are just being naive as hell. ;)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: kindof a loaded question there chief... wakko 2008-03-28 07:20 pm UTC (link)
	It's only paranoia when there's nobody actually out to get you. ;-) (Reply to this)(Parent)

mediavore
2008-03-28 07:50 pm UTC (link)

Ever since moving to Seattle, I have had nightmares of calling 911 and being put on hold or getting a busy signal. Additionally, working in a bar, I learned the fucking cops never arrive, no matter how many times they are called, no matter if people are outside stabbing or shooting eachother. I will always be chick #1, because 911 (though dad worked it for years) is a joke and nobody should ever have to rely upon it.

(Reply to this)

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